Thursday, December 27, 2007

About God Hating Shrimp

You've probably heard it before. It's one of the pettiest arguments on the internet and it says God Hates Shrimp. The gay rights advocates dumb down the Bible again, like Eve in the Garden of Eden. As you may recall, she said "God said" touching the forbidden fruit would kill you. She was hoping the fruit would bring her wisdom she obviously lacked.

So what about the seafood buffet a-la-lipitor?

According to the Old Testament of the Bible, these are the offenses which may have merited the death penalty for those living under the Jewish covenant and the Mosaic law.

Murder (Exodus 21:12, Exodus 21:15)
Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
Disobedience to parents (Exodus 21:17, Deuteronomy 21:18)
Juvenile delinquency - incorrigibility (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
Bestiality (Leviticus 20:15)
Violations of the Sabbath (Exodus 31:15)
Adultery (Leviticus 20:10)
Abominations (Leviticus 20:2)
Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16)
Incest (Leviticus 20:11)
Homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13)
Witchcraft (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27)
False prophecy (Deuteronomy 13:5)
Worshipping a false god (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
Sacrificing to false gods (Exodus 22:20)
Sodomy (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13)
Sex with a woman betrothed to another (Deuteronomy 22:25)
False witness in a capital crime (Deuteronomy 19:16-20)
Fornication by daughters of priests (Leviticus 21:9)
Failure to abide by a decision of the High Court (Deuteronomy 17:12)
Unchastity (Deuteronomy 22:21-24)
Cursing someone (Leviticus 24:14)
Negligence resulting in death (Exodus 21:29)

I'm sorry, but shrimp, crab, lobster, clams, and mussels are NOT on this menu.
Neither did mixed fabrics make the list of capital offenses.
Looking over the list again -- these things look pretty bad, and same-sex sex is on the list.
God hasn't changed His mind about these things either.

In Leviticus the God of the Bible said certain meats weren't fit to eat. His people could still eat food though.

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

And doctors warn their high-cholesterol patients to avoid shrimp, lobster, pork, and shellfish. That doesn't make doctors the bad guys does it? But then, gays won't listen to health professionals about AIDS either.

I kind of hate ignorance, myself.

Comments

Q: "One question, just for the record, the last time your child disobeyed you in any way, did you in fact kill them in accordance with Scripture?"

A: No, I did not fulfill your idea of the Mosaic law by violating two more commandments of the same law -- the commandment of due process (Deut 17:12) which gives the court the authority I don't have to execute someone, and the commandment against murder (Ex 21:12). Taking matters of the law into my own hands also violates the New Testament commandment that Jesus gave us -- which is to love and to forgive. A loving parent would not kill their own child. Jesus said that loving other people the way God intended it, fulfils ALL of God's laws, hence by default, homosexuality is not an appropriate form of Christian love, just like the other capital offenses on the list.

Jesus DID NOT command us to love sin, however, and I see no good thing in the list of capital offenses presented here. Do you?

Q: JB said...
"(The Jewish attitude towards Torah laws is that if G-d had wanted to be more specific, she would have been; therefore, where G-d doesn't say how something is to be done, the sages got to decide.)"

A: The Jewish attitude toward God has never been in the feminine gender. Consider that God created man first in "His" own image as stated in Genesis, then from man God created woman as a complement to man, to be equal in all respects. Consider that Jesus was born a male child. Also consider that Jesus will marry His bride "The Church" as mentioned in the book of Revelation. Jesus will not be marrying another Jesus.

Q:Dieppe said...
The irony of it all is that the Laws in Leviticus (well the Torah and Talmud) are Jewish Civil Law. As such, beyond the "10 Commandments", these "Laws" really don't apply to Gentiles. Even Gentiles of a Christian faith.

A: This really boils down (no pun intended) to two issues: 1) What is moral conduct? 2) What is the eternal penalty for doing wrong? Shrimp and mixed fabrics (dietary and dress code violations) received little if any penalty whatsoever, yet murder(a moral code violation) received the death sentence -- an eternal consequence. Even under the Mosaic laws it would be reasonable for a starving person to eat unclean food or a naked person to wear mixed fabrics if there was nothing else to wear. However, I see no reasonable excuse for any of the capital offenses presented on the list. I personally see no good thing on the list. You tell me which ones God changed His mind about.

For example: Did God think Jews deserved an eternal punishment for murder, whereas it was acceptable conduct for gentiles? Ask the same question for all the other items on the list: Was infant sacrifice wrong for jews but ok for gentiles (Lev 20:2)? How about bestiality? Kidnapping? Gay sex? Adultery? Negligence resulting in wrongful death?

Q: I believe that "God Hates Shrimp" is trying to show the ridiculousness of applying ancient law to modern life. Do it if it makes you happy, but stop trying to apply it to everyone else who don't believe the way you do.

A: I've pointed out what the "Bible says" about this issue, and it does not agree with your disrespectful view of the Bible. This blog is here to present the scriptures truthfully and in love. It appears that the "God Hates Shrimp" web site pulled a few verses out of context at the expense of the rest of the Bible, and twisted those verses unsuccessfully to justify their views about gay marriage. This seems to be a rather common ploy by gay-advocates, and apparently it is the only way they can argue against the scriptures -- making Eve's mistake -- allowing a serpent to dumb up God's word for her and then re-inventing the scriptures to justify herself.

Q: Ryland said...
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. If something doesn't merit a death penalty, it's OK? It says in Leviticus that it's an abomination to eat shellfish, and in Deuteronomy it says it's unclean. Is that not a prohibition against eating shrimp? Or are they just, you know, letting you know? "You can go ahead and eat shrimp, but FYI, it's an abomination"?

A: We know shrimp, lobster, and shellfish contain cholesterol which can be a root cause for heart attack and stroke -- so, no it's not necessarily "OK." These probably aren't the healthiest foods, and God wanted only the best for His people. According to the Bible, the foods restricted by Jewish dietary code are now cleansed for human consumption (ref Acts 10: 10-16). On the other hand, gay sex continues to be unclean moral conduct as reiterated in the New Testament of the Bible.

Q: songofsongs said...
This is what Paul meant about 'the wages of sin is death'. The Lord revealed to me some months ago, that there were two types of penaties to the Mosaic Laws: death penalty which required death by stoning and the sin offering such as the grain, meat, oil and wine offering which is self explanatory. Your articule "About God Hating Shrimp" is spot on.

A: Thanks song of songs. Here's a point I made on another forum, along the lines of your thought process:

"In the day of God's final judgment explained in the Bible, can you imagine what it is going to be like for a righteous, fair, and just God in that day? This is a God that is no respector of persons and treats all men equally in judgment.

To the OT Jew that was stoned to death for having gay sex, God tells him to depart to an eternal burning hell, and gives him all the penalties for breaking His commandments. To the New Testament gentile God says well-done thy good and faithful servant for living the gay lifestyle the way I created you.

Does this sound like a righteous, fair, impartial, and just God to you?"

Q: The boy with the green tambourine said...
No. Nor does the God who ordered the massacre of the Amalekites. Or the one who killed the Egyptian firstborn. Or the one who slaughtered forty children. Or the one who required Jeptha to perform human sacrifice, and Abraham and Isaac to go through a disgusting masquerade.In fact, your God's a pretty nasty person, all told.

A: Well I'm sorry you feel that way about the God of the Bible. All He's ever done for me is give me blessings that I never deserved.

Q: Dieppe said...
This is the point of "God Hates Shrimp". You pick and choose the Bible verses that you are okay with, ("God Hates Man on Man Sex") but discard that you don't agree with (Unclean meat, PROPER Sabbath observance) because it fits your needs! And yet you are too blind to see it! Has Satan blinded you, or is this just pick and choose of your own doing?

A: Thank you very much for your response. This is a typical example of how people promote sin in the church body -- how it is spun, rationalized, and justified until nothing is sin anymore. And now we have a whole group of gay people counting on a petty dietary law to justify themselves before God. It's sad, really and it's a shrimp-sized excuse. It's like me pleading that a traffic code revision somehow justifes murder now.

In your list of counterpoints you mentioned the observance of a proper Sabbath. Personally I would be quite willing to observe Saturday as the Sabbath if the rest of the church body would like to change their day of worship. Historically the church adopted Sunday as the new Sabbath in celebration and remembrance of our Lord’s resurrection. This change occurred in biblical times, and I respect this decision made by our church founders. Whatever the case might be here, I really do think people should observe their Creator on a Sabbath. I also believe our Lord is most interested in the right heart when believers come to worship Him -- that was really His ultimate request in the Bible regarding worship.

In addition, grace trumps the law for believers that received God's grace through repentance as revealed in the New Testament of the Bible. Unbelievers have not received God's gift of grace through repentance and they are still under every part of the Old Testament law as Paul explained. That is why Jesus came, to fulfill the law, and die for our sins, so we could be forgiven for our transgressions of the law through personal faith that brings repentance.

With all that said, tell us why God supposedly loves gay-sex now, but Jews were stoned to death for gay-sex under God’s commandments to Moses. In addition, explain what God should do with those He sent to an eternal hell for their violations of the law -- now that God has supposedly changed His mind about gay-sex and God really made people that way all along (according to the Gay Christian Movement).

17 comments:

Joe said...

One question, just for the record, the last time your child disobeyed you in any way, did you in fact kill them in accordance with Scripture?

The Other Joann said...

You can't just stop at the Torah when dealing with Mosaic law; you have to go on to the Talmud to find how it was actually applied. In the case of a law demanding death for stealing from one's parents, the sages rigged the rules in such a way that it was practically impossible for the law to be enforced. The kid had to steal a certain amount of money at a certain time and buy certain food with it and eat it in a certain way in certain specified locations, and then both parents had to accuse him and demand his death, and then the parents had to meet certain requirements, such as looking and sounding alike.

(The Jewish attitude towards Torah laws is that if G-d had wanted to be more specific, she would have been; therefore, where G-d doesn't say how something is to be done, the sages got to decide.)

Ryland Sanders said...

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. If something doesn't merit a death penalty, it's OK? It says in Leviticus that it's an abomination to eat shellfish, and in Deuteronomy it says it's unclean. Is that not a prohibition against eating shrimp? Or are they just, you know, letting you know? "You can go ahead and eat shrimp, but FYI, it's an abomination"?

Dieppe said...

The irony of it all is that the Laws in Leviticus (well the Torah and Talmud) are Jewish Civil Law. As such, beyond the "10 Commandments", these "Laws" really don't apply to Gentiles. Even Gentiles of a Christian faith.

What do you think all the stink about circumcision in the New Testament was about? The question was whether an edict that specifically applied to God's Chosen People should be applied to converted Gentiles to the new Christianity. And.. correct me if I'm wrong, but it was decided that NO! Circumcision wasn't required for converted Gentiles. Unless they REALLY wanted to.

Now why should Jewish Civil Code be applied to Christians of today, or even (and I hope you catch my point here) NON-Christians of today any more than Mexican Civil Law or French Civil Law should apply to citizens of New York, USA? The answer is---it doesn't!

Hey, if you want to apply ancient civil codes to how you live your life in 2007 America, feel free. Find some place to own indentured servants, marry multiple women, treat women like slaves... go and knock yourself out! I believe that "God Hates Shrimp" is trying to show the ridiculousness of applying ancient law to modern life. Do it if it makes you happy, but stop trying to apply it to everyone else who don't believe the way you do.

songofsongs said...

This is what Paul meant about 'the wages of sin is death'.

The Lord revealed to me some months ago, that there were two types of penaties to the Mosaic Laws: death penalty which required death by stoning and the sin offering such as the grain, meat, oil and wine offering which is self explanatory. Your articule "About God Hating Shrimp" is spot on.

Jesus fullfilled the penalty portion that we no longer have to be stoned to death or give a sin offering. However, this does not mean we are free TO SIN BUT IT MAKES US FREE from the penalties of sin. That should we fall...we have the grace of Jesus who took our place for the penalty of death and of the sacrifical sin offering. If we see this from the Hebraic point of view, this means that the law still is active for Jesus himself, stated that he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. We are not free to sin and do as we please and label this as GRACE. The only Grace is the pardon from our transgrassion where Jesus gave to us his blood, his life and took our place for being stoned to death or having to give a sin offering. Jesus is coming back to for a spotless and blameless church...and there will be the Final Judgement of God.


God is the same yesterday, today and forever and he has not changed any of his laws.

Psalms 119 v 105

The boy with the green tambourine said...

"To the OT Jew that was stoned to death for having gay sex, God tells him to depart to an eternal burning hell, and gives him all the penalties for breaking His commandments. To the New Testament gentile God says well-done thy good and faithful servant for living the gay lifestyle the way I created you.

Does this sound like a righteous, fair, impartial, and just God to you?"

No. Nor does the God who ordered the massacre of the Amalekites. Or the one who killed the Egyptian firstborn. Or the one who slaughtered forty children. Or the one who required Jeptha to perform human sacrifice, and Abraham and Isaac to go through a disgusting masquerade.

In fact, your God's a pretty nasty person, all told.

Dieppe said...

Sin... is transgression of the law. But we aren't BOUND by the Hebrew law. Gentiles are NOT bound by the Jewish Civil Law of 4000 years ago. Otherwise we would be stoning people in the streets for breaking the Sabbath day. (The 7th Day Saturday, NOT Sunday. Read your Bible.)

Jews gathered and worshiped starting from sundown of the 6th day (Friday) until sundown of the 7th day (Saturday). That has never changed in any part of the Bible. If you are going to try and apply Jewish Civil Law to your behavior, then why aren't you also worshiping on the 7th Day Sabbath, and stoning those who don't? Jesus worshiped on the Sabbath. "I come to fulfill the Law." The Law concerning the 7th Day Sabbath is not the Law he fulfilled, but rather the sacrificial law.

But why are you trying to apply standards of what is "sin" which is breaking of the law to Gentiles when you continue to break the "Law" you claim to uphold?

This is the point of "God Hates Shrimp". You pick and choose the Bible verses that you are okay with, ("God Hates Man on Man Sex") but discard that you don't agree with (Unclean meat, PROPER Sabbath observance) because it fits your needs! And yet you are too blind to see it! Has Satan blinded you, or is this just pick and choose of your own doing?

In either case---stop trying to apply "sin" as the breaking of ancient Jewish Civil Law to modern day Gentiles. You'll live a lot happier life, even though I can't speak for the hereafter.

Neil said...

It is sad but not surprising that so many pro-gay theologians try to spin the shrimp passage. The shellfish argument is full of holes but is appealing to many because so few bother to read the passages in context. I encourage you to read flaws of the shellfish argument.

Dieppe said...

Actually, Neil, the problem is you're applying a book of fables and fairy tales with a smattering of Jewish civil legal code, and think that applying it to a group of Gentiles, who don't believe in your book, and aren't bound to your god in any way... is somehow "What Jesus Would Do."

And when they point out to you that by falsely applying portions of scriptures to people to whom NO portion of your fables apply to, and particularly when you use those same verses to then try and codify into United States (or other governments laws) Laws, pushing your religious agenda... then you will be resisted.

People who don't believe your book aren't restricted by any interpretation of your book. But, when you can't even get parts of it RIGHT that are there in black-and-white.

Do you go to church on Sunday? Or Sabbath like your Christ did? According to your book, Seventh-Day-Sabbath observance goes back to Creation. "I come not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it." So the laws for Sabbath observance are still in effect. Yet, if you're a typical Bible-Thumping Sunday-Worshiper... you're probably out mowing the lawn on Saturday.

This one is in the 10-Commandments, and as you say, Christ didn't change the laws. So why aren't you observing the Seventh-Day Sabbath.

The "God Hates Shrimp" point of view is, #1, parody. But #2, is pointing out that regardless of how you slice your Bible, you are still picking and choosing.

All of our sins are as filthy rags before the Lord, your book says. Sins such as lying, gossiping, even coveting are JUST AS MUCH OF A SIN as same-sex gay loving, murder, or anything else you can name.

Jesus spoke out against divorce, yet if you were to apply the Bible's rules on divorce I don't think that capital punishment is an appropriate punishment for your cheating Jimmy Swaggarts or Ted Haggards, do you?

But go ahead.. rationalize your bible all you wish. For the rest of us it's like rationalizing Aesop's Fables. But at least you could get it RIGHT once in a while.

The boy with the green tambourine said...

Well, Aesop's fables have quite a lot going for them, actually ...

Mercyburst said...

Dieppe said: "Actually, Neil, the problem is you're applying a book of fables and fairy tales with a smattering of Jewish civil legal code, and think that applying it to a group of Gentiles, who don't believe in your book, and aren't bound to your god in any way... is somehow "What Jesus Would Do.""

SRF: The problem is you do not believe the Bible, and you are here to defend same-sex conduct at the expense of the Christian faith. Jesus promised eternal life to all those who believe on Him, but unfortunately you aren't interested in this, and you chose a path that leads away from the life Jesus promised.

Dieppe said:

"And when they point out to you that by falsely applying portions of scriptures to people to whom NO portion of your fables apply to, and particularly when you use those same verses to then try and codify into United States (or other governments laws) Laws, pushing your religious agenda... then you will be resisted."

SRF: Referring back to the blog post, I ask again, which of the commandments that took the death penalty are now good? Is murder ok now? Infant sacrifice? Adultery? Gay sex?

Dieppe:

"Do you go to church on Sunday? Or Sabbath like your Christ did? According to your book, Seventh-Day-Sabbath observance goes back to Creation. "I come not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it." So the laws for Sabbath observance are still in effect."

Your issue here is with Christ Himself who is Lord of the Sabbath. Pharisees also attacked Jesus on this point, Jesus said in Mark Chapter 3:

4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.

Dieppe said:

"Yet, if you're a typical Bible-Thumping Sunday-Worshiper... you're probably out mowing the lawn on Saturday."

SRF: Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath. Personally I'm kind of glad the ER stays open on a Saturday. But because your heart is hardened, even as Jesus said, you will seek to destroy His testimony, even as the Pharisees tried to do. Sadly they destroyed their own hope of eternal life. Will you join them or live with Christ?


Dieppe said:

"The "God Hates Shrimp" point of view is, #1, parody. But #2, is pointing out that regardless of how you slice your Bible, you are still picking and choosing"

SRF:

As stated before, which capital offenses would you now throw out?

Dieppe:

"All of our sins are as filthy rags before the Lord, your book says. Sins such as lying, gossiping, even coveting are JUST AS MUCH OF A SIN as same-sex gay loving, murder, or anything else you can name."

SRF:

It is true that breaking the law is breaking the law. However, the consequences are not the same for the various offenses. He who ate shrimp lived another day, but he who had gay sex was stoned to death.


Dieppe said:

"Jesus spoke out against divorce, yet if you were to apply the Bible's rules on divorce I don't think that capital punishment is an appropriate punishment for your cheating Jimmy Swaggarts or Ted Haggards, do you?"

SRF:

Yet these men admitted their conduct was wrong instead of flaunting it as righteous the way gay advocates do.

Dieppe said:

"But go ahead.. rationalize your bible all you wish. For the rest of us it's like rationalizing Aesop's Fables. But at least you could get it RIGHT once in a while."

SRF:

As the Apostle Paul said, faith in Christ is foolishness to those who perish. When we die, our hope is Jesus Christ. What is your hope?

Neil said...

Dieppe,

"Actually, Neil, the problem is you're applying a book of fables and fairy tales with a smattering of Jewish civil legal code, and think that applying it to a group of Gentiles, who don't believe in your book, and aren't bound to your god in any way... is somehow "What Jesus Would Do.""

It isn't a book of fables and fairy tales, it is the word of God. And part of that word notes how God wrote his laws on our hearts. You don't have to read the Bible to know what moral laws are. Read Leviticus 18 and see how God is judging the Canaanites for breaking his moral laws that He expected them to know.

"And when they point out to you that by falsely applying portions of scriptures to people to whom NO portion of your fables apply to, and particularly when you use those same verses to then try and codify into United States (or other governments laws) Laws, pushing your religious agenda... then you will be resisted."

There is absolutely no reason that my religious views shouldn't inform my political views, unless you have a problem with the 1st Amendment. Seriously, do you want me to vote the opposite of my religious views? That would mean I would have to vote for stealing from atheists and putting them in jail.

"Do you go to church on Sunday? Or Sabbath like your Christ did? According to your book, Seventh-Day-Sabbath observance goes back to Creation. "I come not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it." So the laws for Sabbath observance are still in effect. Yet, if you're a typical Bible-Thumping Sunday-Worshiper... you're probably out mowing the lawn on Saturday."

I love Bible lessons from atheists.

"The "God Hates Shrimp" point of view is, #1, parody. But #2, is pointing out that regardless of how you slice your Bible, you are still picking and choosing."

No, we are reading in context. The shrimp laws were dietary restrictions just for the Israelites living in a theocracy. The commandments about sexual behaviors apply to all. Read the passages in context and you'll see what I mean. That is, if you are truly interested in properly characterizing what the Bible says.

"All of our sins are as filthy rags before the Lord, your book says. Sins such as lying, gossiping, even coveting are JUST AS MUCH OF A SIN as same-sex gay loving, murder, or anything else you can name."

Yes, we are all sinners in need of a Savior. That Savior is Jesus Christ. Trust in him and your sins are forgiven. Otherwise, you spend an eternity in Hell as a just punishment for your sins.

The boy with the green tambourine said...

Several debates are going on at a time, it seems. I want to make just two points here.

1. Are all sins really equally evil?

Is rape equivalent to murder equivalent to genocide equivalent to cheating a little on your tax returns? Really?

Rape is, we are told, displeasing to God. It also causes a great deal of pain and misery.

Homosexual relationships are, we are told, displeasing to God. They also ... well, nothing, really.

The contention that these two acts are morally equivalent is the contention that causing pain and misery is unimportant. This contention is evil (not a word I use lightly).

2. To what extent should a voter leave his religion outside the booth?

Your voting patterns will be influenced by your morality (what you consider to be right and wrong), and your morality will be influenced by your religion. Fair enough.

But does any part of your religion actually dictate that you should attempt to force other people to live by the laws of your religion. What says 1 Corinthians 5:12? It says that it is not a Christian's place to judge those outside the congregation. Christian laws are binding on Christians, and on no one else. Whatever about the morality of enforcing your laws on others, I really don't see why you want to in the first place.

Dieppe said...

In reality, no, all crimes are not equal in the eyes of the Law. According to their scripture though, all "sin" is as filthy rags in the eyes of God. Homosexuality is just as "sinful" as gossip, or breaking the Sabbath, or what have you.

The interesting thing I've always found is, there's the Big 10 (Commandments) and while not all anti-gay "Christians" follow those to the letter (Breaking the Sabbath, or dishonoring their parents, committing adultery, taking the Lord's Name in Vain, or even just coveting what others have).. they are always more than happy to apply obscure doesn't-apply-to-them verses to other people so they can feel better about themselves.

The prohibition against eating shellfish just manages to get overlooked. In either case Hebrew civil code does NOT apply to Gentiles who don't believe... so... why do they keep trying to force morality on people who don't believe? I still don't know.

Mercyburst said...

Moses spoke to God face-to-face. Moses heard God say gay sex is detestable. So somebody explain how God changed His mind and now he finds gay sex honorable. This is not a Bible translation issue as I have a complete exegesis on this subject in this blog post:

http://scripturerefinersfire.blogspot.com/2008/08/is-gay-sex-sin-according-to-bible.html

Dieppe said...

Please show chapter and verse where God "said to Moses": "Gay sex is bad".

The only real quotes Moses got from God were inscribed in 2 pieces of stone. (At least as we envision them.) Later, after Moses "dropped" them in anger, God made Moses redo them by hand.

If you're saying that the verses where a man lying with a man is forbidden, in those same books are prohibition of sex during menstruation, forbidding eating of shellfish and pork, forbidding wearing clothes with mixed fibers, and forbidding shaving. Mind you now, most Christians conveniently say that THOSE verses were changed later, but of course not the "No Gays" verse.

If you're going to say "God Said!" and use bits of the Bible to persecute others, why not obey all of it? Know Your Bible please. Understand the historical context under which it was written. And when you're finished with that, realize that most Gay people in America who don't believe in your sacred book aren't bound by obscure verses that some "Christians" use to try and convert them.

(Why on earth am I still getting messages from this thread?)

Mercyburst said...

Dieppe said:

"Please show chapter and verse where God "said to Moses": "Gay sex is bad"."

SRF: Moses's quote is linked in the Original Post under capital crimes, and you have failed to tell us which of the listed capital crimes are now "ok". You have been asked three times now. If you can not answer we can only assume you have no answer. It appears you have picked, chosen, pandered, and justified gay sex out of the list of capital offenses.

Dieppe:

"The only real quotes Moses got from God were inscribed in 2 pieces of stone. (At least as we envision them.) Later, after Moses "dropped" them in anger, God made Moses redo them by hand."

SRF: If you bother to read any of Moses's writings, the Lord appeared to him often, unlike any of the other prophets after him. Here is an example in Numbers 12:

5 And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Dieppe said:

If you're saying that the verses where a man lying with a man is forbidden, in those same books are prohibition of sex during menstruation, forbidding eating of shellfish and pork, forbidding wearing clothes with mixed fibers, and forbidding shaving. Mind you now, most Christians conveniently say that THOSE verses were changed later, but of course not the "No Gays" verse.

SRF: Eating shellfish never carried the death penalty, neither did any of the other violations. However, gay sex was punishable by death -- people were killed for it. You tell us now it is ok, whereas God had them put to death. Should God now go back, restore them to life, and confess His sins (according to you)?

Dieppe:

If you're going to say "God Said!" and use bits of the Bible to persecute others, why not obey all of it?

SRF: Nobody is being persecuted here. ASA pointed out by Jesus in the NT, love -- thwe way God in tended it -- fulfills ALL the OT law, which proves gay sex is the wrong kind of love. As pointed out already and numerous times, you tell us the OT commandments don't matter anymore, and that gay sex is "now" ok according to you-- are these crimes now ok as well: murder, kidnapping, child sacrifice, witchcraft, negligence resulting in wrongful death, adultery?

Christians have the hope of eternal life which rests in the authority of the scriptures, whereas you tell us the scriptures have no authority and hence our hope of a resurrection and eternal life is vain.

Dieppe:

Know Your Bible please. Understand the historical context under which it was written. And when you're finished with that, realize that most Gay people in America who don't believe in your sacred book aren't bound by obscure verses that some "Christians" use to try and convert them.

SRF: This web site is here to defend the scriptures. Our hope of eternal life obviously means nothing to you. That is the issue as we see it. People that don't have this hope obviously don't understand.


Dieppe: (Why on earth am I still getting messages from this thread?)

SRF: Because you have subscribed to this thread. You need to unsubscribe.