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On a Christian forum I was confronted by a gay so-called Christian that promotes "loving monogamous gay relationships." He said nobody needs to repent because Christ died for everyone's sins. He argued in favor of same-sex sex in the lives of so-called "gay Christians." He said it does no harm to other Christians, in particular the ex-gay ones. I present his questions and my answers:
Q: What proof do you have that same sex sex was "harming them" (ex-gay Christians)?
A:
[1.0] The damage is spiritual according to some of our (ex-gay) brothers and sisters in Christ by their own personal testimonies. Their personal (ex-gay) testimonies belong to them and not to you. You can not speak for them.
[1.1] It's not about what you believe, or even who you are, it's about what struggling Christian brothers and sisters believe as they try to live for Christ.
[1.2] You believe you are living for Christ, and so do other gays. I'm not debating that, but if I must choose (and I feel that I must), then I choose the group that makes the greatest personal sacrifice for Christ. That group is obviously the ex-gay group, and they are my Christian brothers and sisters that are being hurt by gay rights advocates.
[1.3] Case at point: Ex-gay Watch and Truth Wins Out. Apparently many gays that call themselves Christians are siding with these monstrous groups of hate-mongers headed by men like Wayne Besen (the head of Truth Wins Out). God have mercy on anyone that calls himself/herself a Christian and joins this persecution against believers. (Rev 1)
[2.0] I bring a Christian brother's testimony as a witness:
"I am a Christian man who has struggled with same sex attraction. I am not a practicing homosexual because I know that homosexuality is wrong, know that it is a sin, and know that the Bible is very clear in teaching that it is immoral. I do not try to spin it, rationalize it, or conveniently reinterpret the Scripture. Marital Status: Married."
[2.1] It is sin for a fellow-believer to go against the weakness in another-believer's life, as they have done on the forum on many occasions.
[2.2] On more than one occasion this ex-gay brother said his conscience was offended by his so-called "gay Christian" brothers on the forum. They said God made him gay and it was disobedience for him to refrain from the way God created him. He was supposed to participate in God's ordained gift of gay-sex according to these "gay Christians."
[2.3] Regardless of what you or anyone else believes about sin, it is wrong conduct to offend his weakness.
[3.0] I bring Ist Corinthians 8:12 to witness:
And when you sin against other believers[a] by encouraging them to do something they believe is wrong, you are sinning against Christ.
Q: No proof that gays and lesbians aren't your brothers and sisters in Christ.
A:
[3.1] It is incumbent on ANY believer to prove THEY ARE a believer in Jesus Christ. That is their job, not mine. So your objection is irrelevant to the point being made about gay-affirming doctrine, which is sin by definition in I Cor 8. Your objection is a non sequitor.
[3.2] Besides, I think your claim is irrelevant to Christianity anyway: Is someone my brother or sister in Christ simply because they are gay? Faith in Christ is the basis for Christianity.
[3.3] My point is that the gay-affirming doctrine is an open invitation for struggling Christians to go against their own conscience. The gay-affirming proponents claim to be Christians and this is a violation of conscience for the struggling group of ex-gay believers.
Q: "The kind of God you believe in" must be an arbitrary one, if one must obey an arbitrary rule.
A:
[4.0] I believe in a Holy God that brings life to ALL believers. The spirit of same-sex sex kills the spiritual life of ex-gay Christians according to them. The same spirit blesses the spiritual lives of so-called "gay Christians" according to Katherine Schori, the Presiding Bishop of the ECUSA that ordinated the openly-gay noncelibate bishop Gene Robinson. This can not come from the spirit of Christ, otherwise Christ Himself is a contradiction -- slaying the spirit of one believer and blessing the spirit of another. Therefore, the spirit of same-sex sex can not come from a Holy God.
[4.1] I call the entire ex-gay movement to the witness stand. Regardless of what you believe about them, they are making a tremendous sacrifice to please God, and frankly I think they are trying a lot harder than you are.
[4.2] By their own testimonies they can not be in a same-sex sex relationship and serve God too. That fact alone is sufficient proof, regardless of what you believe about sin.
[4.3] I'm sorry, but God does not have two standards for Christian conduct. You really have no debate as far as I see it.
[4.4] The SIN epitaph for "gay Christian" doctrine, ironically, is the lack of love for struggling believers in Christ that are ex-gay.
The apostle Paul explains it far better in Ist Corinthians 8 regarding Food Sacrificed to Idols (reference New Living Translation):
1 Now regarding your question about food that has been offered to idols. Yes, we know that “we all have knowledge” about this issue. But while knowledge makes us feel important, it is love that strengthens the church.
2 Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much.
3 But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.[a]
4 So, what about eating meat that has been offered to idols? Well, we all know that an idol is not really a god and that there is only one God.
5 There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords.
6 But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.
7 However, not all believers know this. Some are accustomed to thinking of idols as being real, so when they eat food that has been offered to idols, they think of it as the worship of real gods, and their weak consciences are violated.
8 It’s true that we can’t win God’s approval by what we eat. We don’t lose anything if we don’t eat it, and we don’t gain anything if we do.
9 But you must be careful so that your freedom does not cause others with a weaker conscience to stumble.
10 For if others see you—with your “superior knowledge”—eating in the temple of an idol, won’t they be encouraged to violate their conscience by eating food that has been offered to an idol?
11 So because of your superior knowledge, a weak believer[b] for whom Christ died will be destroyed.
12 And when you sin against other believers[c] by encouraging them to do something they believe is wrong, you are sinning against Christ.
13 So if what I eat causes another believer to sin, I will never eat meat again as long as I live—for I don’t want to cause another believer to stumble.
[5.0] So in the end:
- [5.1] it doesn't matter about sin definitions.
- [5.2] it doesn't matter what anyone believes about the gay lifestyle.
- [5.3] it doesn't matter about monogamous loving relationships.
- [5.3b] it doesn't matter that someone feels their gay relationship is without sin, because ex-gay Christians can not live that way and serve Jesus Christ too as they have attested.
- [5.4] it doesn't matter about bible translations.
- [5.5] it doesn't matter about who wants to call themselves a brother or sister in Christ.
- [5.5b] it doesn't matter if ex-gay therapy is a total failure and a fraud.
- [5.6] it doesn't even matter about sex at all.
[5.7] What matters is the body of Christ, and the spiritual damage caused by this so-called "gay affirming Christian" sin-pandering doctrine that says gay sex is not sin. Some Christians that struggle with their Christian beliefs are confused and tempted to go against their conscience. As long as any Christian brother or sister struggles with this issue it doesn't matter about those that don't struggle with it, or those that failed and then returned to same-sex sex.
[5.8] The whole "gay Christian" argument can be defeated with OUR Christian love for brothers and sisters in Christ that are being hurt spiritually by this doctrine that says gay-sex is not sin. The gay affirmers can argue all they like. It's done. The proof is iron-clad.
Summary
"Gay Christianity" is incompatible with Christianity, because it violates the conscience of brothers and sisters in Christ that left same sex-sex to serve Christ.
If that isn't enough proof then consider the following points:
1) God is the perfect creator and author of love and life. If gay-sex were His intention then why did He give gays the physical ability to reproduce, but not with each other in monogamous loving relationships?
2) No reputable translation or translator of the Bible says gay sex is ok -- period.
Revisions
(1) Section 1.3 revised per the first comment.
Comments:
GCMWatch,
Thanks for your information. Curiously, Wayne Besen calls his movement "Truth Wins Out", implying that people can't change, while in reality there are ex-gays that have changed or became celibate. The supposed "immutability of sexual orientation" wasn't supported by Alfred Kinsey, the father of modern sexuality theories:
"Kinsey himself avoided and disapproved of using terms like homosexual or heterosexual to describe individuals, asserting that sexuality is prone to change over time, and that sexual behavior can be understood both as physical contact as well as purely psychological phenomena (desire, sexual attraction, fantasy)."
Even the APA tip-toes around the facts, saying that no therapist should treat same-sex orientation under the a-priori assumption that it needs to be changed, however it's common knowledge that people have changed sexual orientation. Take Anne Heche as just one example of many.
By the way are you associated with the Gay Christian Movement Watch? I see you are. Thanks for the link up.
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4 comments:
Just to clarify, Ex-Gay Watch is not associated with Wayne Besen, nor has it ever been. We don't even write about him that much.
For the record, XGW was started on 2002 and run by Mike Airhart until this past year, at which time I became editor.
In the interest of accuracy, I would appreciate it if you would correct the link.
Thanks and Happy New Year,
David Roberts
SRF: You accurately associated Exgaywatch with Wayne Besen. He has (1) posted there without restrictions and (2) found support from the gay christians rooming at exgaywatch.
To my knowledge there has never been any note of disassociation from Besen's "montrous" hate as you put it.
David Robert's claim that they dont write about him is a bit left of truth. Look here
That being said, you did a tremendous job showing why the gay christian movement's low christology is the very reason why they cant be considered brothers and sisters in Christ. Anyone who dumbs down the authority and synergy of Christ with God and his Word is not to be received as authentic believer in Jesus Christ.
I think you are so far off its not even funny. I almost don't even want to comment because your article is so non factual and just poorly thought out. I have to leave a comment though. Its people like you that breed hate. You don't have to be scared of people that are different than you. Not everyone that is glbt is running around in open sin everywhere. There are lots of us that live good moral Christian lives. This kind of thought breads hate, causes separation in families and suicide. If you don't believe that there was 4 just last week that killed themselves based on how they felt about themselves because the church told them they were sinners. Please stop the hate. Its not even factual.
Sandy said: "I think you are so far off its not even funny. I almost don't even want to comment because your article is so non factual and just poorly thought out."
M/B says: It's rather obvious to me that you either didn't bother reading this article or you did not comprehend what it says. It's all factual information from real people -- just like I'm quoting your words now.
Sandy said: "I have to leave a comment though."
M/B says: of course.
Sandy said: "Its people like you that breed hate."
M/B says: God says he hates sin, and here you are to defend it.
Sandy said: "You don't have to be scared of people that are different than you."
M/B says: The gay-message is what bothers me, because it says the bible is not an authority and hence my biblical hope for eternal life has no basis. This paradox should be clear to you if you spend anytime at all around people of faith.
Sandy said: "Not everyone that is glbt is running around in open sin everywhere."
M/B says: That's between them and their maker.
Sandy says: "There are lots of us that live good moral Christian lives."
M/B says: If gay sex is moral -- then my bible is a lie. I choose to believe the Bible over what you have to say.
Sandy said: "This kind of thought breads hate, causes separation in families and suicide. If you don't believe that there was 4 just last week that killed themselves based on how they felt about themselves because the church told them they were sinners."
M/B says: Maybe they should go somewhere else if they can't accept the fact they are sinners like the rest of us Christians -- instead of killing themselves. That would be my recommendation.
Sandy said: "Please stop the hate. Its not even factual."
M/B says: Please stop your attack on the Christian faith. Christians are concerned about their hope of eternal life contained in the bible, and gay-theology says the bible has no authority. That's the real issue here.
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